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Why do modern Chinese call themselves Han?

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josh avatar
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Why not Tang, Ming, Song, Qin, Jin? Why did they pick Han period?

I have the assumption that the Chinese nationalists during the communist revolution took the idea from the Nguyen Dynasty. Since Chinese lost their culture to the Qing after 300 years rule, they looking to restore their culture and to drive out the Qing so they look for a source but why not restore Ming or, the Song? Because they don't have much sources of Song or Ming? This led to me thinking one of the nationalists was the Ming loyalist descendants have been living in Vietnam under the Nguyen Dynasty. So they just took from what the Nguyen referred themselves, or the Chinese nationalist was half mixed Hoa-Viet.

At the time of Qing there was a very blur border between Vietnam and China, people often confused themselves.

Similar during the period ousting the Mongol out of China one of the Chinese claimed to relate to the Vietnamese Tran Dynasty to use as the base to fight the Mongol.

Or was it the intention of the Chinese nationalists to include Vietnam as part of China after driven out the Qing therefore if Vietnam was part of China, they could easily claim well, they came from the Nguyen that would make China became a continuous inheritance of the Nguyen from Han to Nguyen? In the history of Vietnam and China one king claim to be a descendant of another dynasty very commons.

Obviously, modern Chinese and Vietnamese would not want any relationship with each other. So why do they liked to take thing from each other? Was it the ancient Chinese and Vietnamese concept sharing culture and are the same people?

A lot of western source claims Vietnam looked up from Chinese but the modern attitude of Vietnamese to Chinese is obviously the opposite thus it does not make any sense to me.

 

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josh avatar
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I read a lot of Vietnamese historical texts and I notice they did not distinguish themselves with Chinese or think Chinese as another identity. Same for the Chinese they did not distinguish Viet as a separate identity instead they sought to bring or reincorporate Vietnam. Song, Ming explicitly claimed Vietnam as part of China and tried to incorporate and failed

The Chinese Dynasties considered Vietnam as a separate identity were the Yuan and Qing. However the Yuan and Qing were perceived by Chinese nationalists as invaders and not part of Chinese identity.

Meaning, the Vietnamese were the continuous state that practice the same culture uninterrupted for thousands of years meanwhile the Chinese twice had their culture practice interrupted by the invastion of Manchu and Mongol.

Then, does the Han Nhan (people) term come from Han dynasty?The historical context after the Han collapsed none Chinese state referred themselves as Han. They fought under banner Viet/Yue as the Cantonese today still referred themselves as Yue and that included the little state called Nam Han (Southern Han) the king referred themselves as to Yue/Viet. This led to the thought, the Han of the Han period did not refer themselves as Han.

Therefore, the Han people is the modern term that came from the Nguyen who first called themselves as Han Nhan. The historian during the Nguyen Dynasty still regard Nam Viet as Viet state, they must think Nam Han was also Viet state since the Viet was part of it and Nam Han was comprised of the land of Nam Viet. They called themselves the Han people and name the country Dai Nam.

Western source claimed that Gia Long named the country Nam Viet but the Qing court changed it to Viet Nam. However, Ming Mang named the country Dai Nam that also means Ming Mang did not give a single thought Vietnamese was Viet/Yue people, the Vietnamese under Ming Mang referred themselves as Han to differentiate themselves with Chinese Qing. This also means the Chinese under Qing did not refer themselves as Han only the Viet did. Now the Chinese refer themselves as Han while the Viet changed to call themselves Viet/Kinh. It is clearly the Vietnamese tried to separate their identity here.

Both Kinh and Viet are modern terms to describe the Vietnamese and who chose these terms? No where in the Vietnamese historical the ancient people referred themselves as Kinh nor Viet (except for the short period of Nan Yue) but why the early independent Viet dynasties Ngo, Dinh, Le, Ly none of them regard themselves as Viet though historian of that time still think Nan Yue was Viet kingdom, and saw the Chinese as the same people as them and not a separate identity. Clearly, the ancient Viet did not consider themselves as Viet/Yue and Viet is the modern term.
==========

Concluded, the Vietnamese culture does not borrow from China as many western source claimed. It has been a continuous uninterrupted culture for thousands of years. Chinese culture is a mixed bag of cultures here.

 

http://vietrealm.com/index.php?topic=37034.0

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Huaxia refers to a confederation of tribes—living along the Yellow River—who were the ancestors of what later became the Han ethnic group in China. ... Initially, Huaxia defined mainly a civilized society that was distinct and stood in contrast to what was perceived as the barbaric peoples around them. The forefathers of the Han people living in the Central Plains referred to themselves by this term. Earlier on they called themselves Hua (华), Zhuhua (诸华), Xia (夏) or Zhuxia (诸夏). The term Huaxia (华夏) embodies the common identity of the way of life, language, and culture of the people living in the Central Plains, mainly the Han people, and the inheritance of such identity. The Huaxia people evolved into a fairly stable ethnic group in the Qin Dynasty, which established a unified country of many ethnic groups with Huaxia being the principal group. In the Han Dynasty, the term Han became an alternative name of Huaxia. Later, the term Huaxia was extended to refer to China or the Han people.

The Shang society started the first recorded civilization there around 1760 BC.

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The very earliest period in traditional Chinese history is called the Mythical Period, when—according to legend—the Xia dynasty ruled China. The Shang dynasty, the first historically confirmed dynasty, supposedly began when the Shang overthrew the Xia sometime around 1760 BCE.

 

The river actually looks yellow due to sedimentation.

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This is properly made up of those Chinese nationalists who tried to create an identity similar to the case of Vietnamese created 18 Hung King.

How can Huaxia transform into Han? Can Han transform to Viet? Don't make a god damn sense to me.

Thru out generations of Chinese dynasties; Qin, Tang, Song, Ming...etc none referred themselves as Han ; then suddenly Han is used and interpreted as Huaxia.

If the Huaxia and Han were that much important then the Tang would call themselves Hua or Han or after the collapse of Han, various states did not fight for Han identity or the Ming after ousted Mongol, they did not fight as Han identity in fact one of the leaders during the war with Mongol claimed to relate to Tran Dynasty thus said the Han was meaningless to them.

The King of Southern Han claimed he was Yue. So again, the Han is meaningless.

The Han people or (Han Nhan) only appeared during the communist revolution try to establish Chinese identity.

The Cantonese contributed a lot to the war ousting the Manchu, the leader was Sun Yet Sen. The Cantonese referred themselves as Yue and not Han. Again if the Han is importantly understood then it must be consistently used by Chinese but it isn ot the case.

The term Han Nhan/Han people used by Ming Mang to describe his people. I am sure he is not mistaken himself and his people as Chinese. Since he used the term Han Nhan to differentia with Chinese under Qing.

The Ha culture Ming Mang used to describe the Vietnamese culture is a form of culture not the same as Han people. Ha translated to Chinese as Xia.

I am sure the communist Chinese learned a thing or two from the Nguyen Dynasty and used it to establish Chinese identity against Manchu Qing.

Some people think Chinese never copy from Vietnam, think again. They copy many things around the world, Vietnam is no exception.

https://thanhnien.vn/van-hoa/bao-trung-quoc-goi-non-la-ao-dai-viet-nam-la-phong-cach-trung-quoc-1150932.html

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South of the Yangtze river was the traditional home of Baiyue tribes, so southern Han were technically Yue people. Even today, it's hard to tell a southern Chinese from a northern Vietnamese.

[img width=400] [/img]

[img width=400] [/img]

Northern China is a totally different geographical area. It's the land of the Manchus, Mongols, Xianbei, and Jurchens, and together they ruled over China for much of its history.

[img width=400] [/img]

Yellow river Chinese are considered southerners with very different lifestyles and customs.

Jews of Asia, merchants, expert sea mariners, etc.

The upturned eaves on roof corners depict boats riding on sea waves.

[img width=400] https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f526db30a5c52a83a0655aecc51c1dfb-c [/img]

[img width=400] [/img]

[img width=400] [/img]

[img width=400] [/img]

[img width=400] [/img]

The Tang empire was of Xianbei origin.

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South of the Yangtze river was the traditional home of Baiyue tribes, so southern Han were technically Yue people. Even today, it's hard to tell a southern Chinese from a northern Vietnamese.

[img width=400] [/img]

[img width=400] [/img]

Northern China is a totally different geographical area. It's the land of the Manchus, Mongols, Xianbei, and Jurchens, and together they ruled over China for much of its history.

[img width=400] [/img]

Yellow river Chinese are considered southerners with very different lifestyles and customs.

Jews of Asia, merchants, expert sea mariners, etc.

The upturned eaves on roof corners depict boats riding on sea waves.

[img width=400] https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f526db30a5c52a83a0655aecc51c1dfb-c [/img]

[img width=400] [/img]

[img width=400] [/img]

[img width=400] [/img]

[img width=400] [/img]

The Tang empire was of Xianbei origin.

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josh avatar
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It is freaking 2020 the beginning of 4th industrial, the IoT, AI and you still believe the Yue thing? You need to update your knowledge.

The mtDNA pointed out Southern China and Northern Vietnam dominate by Tai R9F. Of course, they look alike. However, it is not the same to be said for the whole of Vietnam.

The Yue? I know Cantonese claimed to be Yue. I am for sure not ancient Vietnamese called themselves Yue. Don't know for sure about Ly, Tran, Le but Nguyen called themselves Han Nhan. The biggest ethnic of Vietnam called themselves Kinh. Only Cantonese refer to themselves as Yue.

Name of a country doesn't always align with the ethnic name. China dominant ethnic refer themselves as Han. Ming Mang named the country Dai Nam and referred people as Han Nhan. The Ho dynasty named the country Dai Ngu, don't know the people but definitely not Viet nor Kinh ...etc. see the inconsistency here? I am an AI architect, a small inconsistent/bug I can easily spot.

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