Northern Thais/Lanna and Lao are genetically much closer to Viets than to other Thais. – Page 3 – Anthropology, Population Genetics & Human Evolution

Qamzardaan · 2022-03-02T14:19:29Z

@athena @olive-juice @prau123 @sailorneptune @zexsypmp23 Thoughts on this? It seems that ethnic Tais (wrote Tai to distinguish them from the Thai) of Northern Thailand/locals of the Lanna region and many ethnic Lao from both Laos (the country) and Northern parts of Isaanaka NE Thailand such as Loei, Nong Khai, Udon Thani, Nakhon Phanom, etc. are genetically much closer to Vietnamese and indigenous peoples of Southern China such as the Hmong, Mulam, Lahu, etc. than to the Thais of Central, Eastern and Southernregions. I will mention that Southern Isaan is pretty different from Northern Isaan; the former is inhabited primarily by Khmers and other Austroasiatic speakers. I find this very interesting because it's fascinating how Northern Thais (comprises of many different Tai-Kadai ethnic groups such as Tai Yuan, Tai Lue, Tai Khuen (a subgroup of the Shan, Yong, etc) and ethnic Lao (another Tai-Kadai group) of Laos and Northern Isaan can be so genetically close to the Kinh aka ethnic Vietnamese of Vietnam despite speaking totally different languages. I know this forum doesn't allow taxonomy or phenotypical discussion, but I want to mention that this seems to correlate with genetics. When I visited the Northern Thailand and Northern parts of Isaan, I noticed a lot of the locals have lighter skin, much more East Asian-ish features (despite having no Chinese admixture from what they told me) and look much more like the Viets I have interacted with IRL and seen in Hanoi (I have been to Vietnam only once) and many ethnic Chinese Thai (I'm one myself ethnically) and ethnic minorities of Southern China than to most Thais south of the historical Lanna Kingdom who have darker complexion and look a lot more stereotypically SE Asian which indicate a lot of Mon, Khmer, Indian and Malay ancestries (the latter in Southern Thailand). Here are some Northern Thai/Lanna and Laotian gedmatch samples to illustrate my point. I also have their G25 results which is simulated from their HarappaWorld (they haven't actually done G25 yet). 1. This kit is from Phayao in Northern Thailand. Not sure what Tai group she is but likely Tai Yuan. MDLP K23b. Admix Results (sorted): # Population Percent1 South_East_Asian 44.282 Austronesian 41.543 Tungus-Altaic 8.224 South_Indian 3.625 Australoid 0.786 East_Siberian 0.547 Subsaharian 0.458 Paleo_Siberian 0.339 Khoisan 0.1810 Archaic_Human 0.08 Single Population Sharing: # Population (source) Distance1 Yong ( ) 4.082 Tai_Lue ( ) 4.13 Tai_Yuan ( ) 4.354 Vietnamese ( ) 4.425 Tai_Khuen ( ) 4.846 Yao ( ) 5.487 Zhuang ( ) 5.678 Jiamao ( ) 5.769 Hmong ( ) 6.4110 Cantonese ( ) 6.6111 Htin ( ) 8.0212 Vietnamese_north ( ) 8.0913 Hmong_Miao ( ) 8.5614 Mlabri ( ) 8.8315 Kinh_Vietnam_KHV ( ) 8.8416 Vietnamese_central ( ) 9.217 Vietnamese_south ( ) 9.5318 Plang ( ) 9.619 Javanese ( ) 10.0920 Jagoi ( ) 10.31 Mixed Mode Population Sharing: PuntDNAL K13: score Kinh/Vietnamese, Dai and Lahu before Cambodian and Thai. Admix Results (sorted): # Population Percent1 NE_Asia 48.012 SE_Asia 41.993 South_Asia 5.174 Oceania 1.935 East_Africa 0.956 SW_Europe 0.867 South_Africa 0.558 NE_Europe 0.59 SW_Asia 0.0210 West_Africa 0.02 Single Population Sharing: # Population (source) Distance1 Dai 4.322 Vietnamese 4.963 Lahu 11.034 Thai 14.975 Cambodian 18.696 Burmese 19.897 Miaozu 20.818 Malayan 23.39 She 25.7210 Han_South_China 25.8911 Filipino 26.1812 Luzon 26.3613 Visayan 26.8914 Dusun 34.315 Naxi 34.3116 Murut 36.3317 Han_North_China 39.1418 Korean 42.7119 Xibo 44.5320 Japanese 46.9 Mixed Mode Population Sharing: Her G25 population distance: the Vietnamese (Kinh and Dong profiles) comes from this thread. It's fascinating how she is closer to the Vietnamese, Dai, Southern Chinese ethnic minorities such as Gelao, Mulam, Dong, Lahu, Lawa than to other Thais and Cambodians. Distance to: Phayao_1[spoiler][B]0.02358892 Kinh_Vietnam0.02435845 Vietnamese_(Kinh_Profile)[/B][B]0.02677338 Gelao[/B][B]0.02763806 Tai_Lue[/B]0.02977526 Lahu[B]0.03084605 Dai[B][/B]0.03773484 Zhuang[B][/B]0.03962704 Maonan[/B]0.04112553 Mulam0.04643903 Dong_Guizhou0.04784120 Li0.04982191 Lawa0.05020075 Karen_Sgaw0.05225082 Dong_Hunan0.05380770 Vietnamese_(Dong_Profile)0.05488653 Cambodian0.05825672 Hmong0.06251951 Akha0.06309951 Han_Guangdong0.07122919 Thai0.07313662 Miao0.07402471 Htin_Mal0.08283232 Tujia0.08290185 Han_Chongqing0.08381104 Malay0.08592360 She0.08696019 Han_Fujian0.08857581 Atayal0.09070317 Han_Sichuan0.09174318 Mlabri[/spoiler] Here is how she can be modelled using G25: Lawa is an indigenous Austroasiatic speaking group from Northern Thailand, who is be one of the oldest settlers in the region before the arrival of Tai speaking migrants from Southern China. Target: Phayao_1Distance: 1.4499% / 0.0144992572.0 Kinh_Vietnam28.0 Lawa Another model of her: Target: Phayao_1Distance: 1.4385% / 0.0143845860.6 Kinh_Vietnam26.4 Lawa11.4 Tai_Lue1.6 Karen_Sgaw 2. Another gedmatch kit from Northern Thailand. He is also much closer to the Kinh/Viet and Dai...

Anthropology, Population Genetics & Human Evolution

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Dyno-Mite

(@dyno)

Posts: 1462

Noble Member

Posted by: @cheesefries

@dyno

I think it's called "Ancient Coastal Southern Chinese"

Quote from a study:

When we analyzed the DNA of people who lived in coastal southern China 9,000-8,500 years ago, we realized that already by then much of China shared a common heritage. Because their archaeology and morphology was different from that of the Yellow River farmers, we had thought these coastal people might come from a lineage not closely related to those first agricultural East Asians. Maybe this group’s ancestry would be similar to the Tianyuan Man or Hòabìnhians.

I don't like being called Chinese. the article clearly says pre-Neolithic SEA hunter-gatherer groups

Posted : 05/03/2022 1:20 am

cheesefries

(@cheesefries)

Posts: 90

Estimable Member

Ancient Hoabinhians were found to have resembled modern tribal groups of Mainland Southeast Asia.

Posted : 05/03/2022 6:16 am

Dyno-Mite reacted

cheesefries

(@cheesefries)

Posts: 90

Estimable Member

Hoabinhian:La368 Gedmatch kit-#
CU5131992

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	S_Indian	42.33
2	E_Asian	30.08
3	Oceanian	11.69
4	Siberian	3.93
5	W_African	3.75
6	NE_European	2.61
7	Horn_Of_Africa	2.31
8	Mediterranean	1.43
9	Wht_Nile_River	0.89
10	S_African	0.76
11	Caucasian	0.2
12	Omo_River	0.02

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Bengali	39.99
2	Burmese	40.06
3	Malayan	40.36
4	Tamil_Nadu_SC	40.48
5	Sakilli	40.49
6	Paniya	40.59
7	UP_Muslim	41.17
8	Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin	41.73
9	North_Kannadi	41.82
10	Hazara	41.86
11	Uyghur	41.96
12	UP_Brahmin	42.31
13	Uttar_Pradesh_SC	42.39
14	Tharus	42.92
15	Kanjar	43.16
16	Uzbek	44.66
17	Burusho	45.15
18	Kashmiri	46.36
19	Romani	47.12
20	Somali_Benadiri	48.98

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#	Primary Population (source)			Secondary Population (source)			Distance
1	57.8%	Paniya	+	42.2%	Cambodian	@	14.14
2	58%	Malayan	+	42%	Cambodian	@	14.27
3	59.4%	Paniya	+	40.6%	Filipino	@	14.27
4	50.4%	Burmese	+	49.6%	Paniya	@	14.34
5	59.6%	Malayan	+	40.4%	Filipino	@	14.49
6	55.6%	Paniya	+	44.4%	Singaporean	@	14.61
7	55.8%	Malayan	+	44.2%	Singaporean	@	14.63
8	50.2%	Burmese	+	49.8%	Malayan	@	14.74
9	61.5%	Paniya	+	38.5%	Vietnamese	@	15.38
10	57.1%	North_Kannadi	+	42.9%	Cambodian	@	15.44
11	61.7%	Malayan	+	38.3%	Vietnamese	@	15.47
12	63.6%	Paniya	+	36.4%	Chinese	@	15.47
13	54.8%	North_Kannadi	+	45.2%	Singaporean	@	15.52
14	63.8%	Malayan	+	36.2%	Chinese	@	15.68
15	58.1%	Sakilli	+	41.9%	Cambodian	@	15.7
16	55.8%	Sakilli	+	44.2%	Singaporean	@	15.79
17	58.8%	North_Kannadi	+	41.2%	Filipino	@	15.84
18	51.3%	Burmese	+	48.7%	North_Kannadi	@	16.13
19	59.8%	Sakilli	+	40.2%	Filipino	@	16.17
20	50.3%	Burmese	+	49.7%	Sakilli	@	16.22

Posted : 05/03/2022 6:57 am

Qamzardaan

(@qamzardaan)

Posts: 487

Reputable Member

Topic starter

@cheesefries they would resemble more the Onge/Jarawa/Andamanese of the Andaman Islands than tribal groups in mainland SE Asia.

Distance to:	LAO_Hoabinhian
0.03733828	Onge
0.03797909	Jarawa
0.09959662	Gadaba
0.10649161	Bonda
0.10716137	Juang
0.11100200	Khonda_Dora
0.11128152	Korwa
0.11182114	Birhor
0.11185769	Ho
0.12019293	Santhal
0.12292376	Bhumij
0.12701309	Asur
0.12871843	Gond
0.12877500	Brahmin_Manipuri
0.13319807	Newar
0.13517471	Tharu
0.14328650	Nepalese_E
0.14345268	Jehai
0.15017446	Nepalese_D
0.15172589	Paniya
0.15556215	Kusunda
0.15608395	Kadar
0.15874060	Irula
0.15896532	Rajput_Rajasthan_o
0.15940094	Malayan

Posted : 05/03/2022 8:14 am

Dyno-Mite

(@dyno)

Posts: 1462

Noble Member

@cheesefries they fall under melanesians

Posted : 22/06/2022 10:28 pm