Originally Posted by Selurong
I think Cipangu was indeed the Philippines and during that time Japan was known by another name: in Chinese records it was called the state of Wa...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wa_(Japan)
And it was famous for Silver not Gold (the Rajahnate of Butuan in the Phils was the one famous for gold). Furthermore, the state of Wa (root-word for Wakuo/Wokuo) was already a well-known country.
So, Cipangu couldn't be Japan because China knew it as Wa but didn't know about the "Southern Barbarians" of the sea people; until a much later time when a King from the Sulu Sultanate (Pre-Islamic period) introduced itself quite late in the game; around the 800s whereas Wa was known as Japan in 57 A.D.
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Philippian Isles of Austronesians (Las Isles Filipinas)
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Apr 06, 2019 2:08 pm
Japan was well known in China compared to the Philippines. Japan had a stable bureaucracy and an ancient monarchy with a recorded history stretching to the BC period whereas, states in the Philippines rise and fall like summer flowers.
Japan was a stable country with a long history, whereas Philippine kingdoms were short-lived and were replaced by new kingdoms quickly; in fact there is a gap in Philippine history wherein an entire millennium seemed to have been lost (0 AD to 900 AD) {No records or ancient documents or artifacts from this period} [Kingdoms and their written records began to resurface again in 900 AD to the 1500s AD (PreSpanish period)] Yet, Even we can't explain this gap and neither do the neighboring countries have any records which stated what happened between 0 to 900 AD. (Ming records about the Philippines date from the 900s or late 800s at most, the Brunei Sultanate's records are from the 1200s, the Sultanate of Mallaca was from the 1300s, Indianized Chiampa, around the 1000s and Majapahit around the 900s)
Whereas annals in China, Korea and even within Japan itself of the Japanese nation record an uninterrupted span of time from Shaman Queen Himiko's reign from 170-248 AD to the present.
Now, how do we explain the Philippine's lost millennium from 0 to 900 AD?
Unless, the place would be Cipangu (As Marco Polo says it was) then, we can fill in the gaps of this lost millennium.
Furthermore, even though the Japanese did trade with the Southerners, guess what the Europeans employed in discovering Japan?
Bras Bayão, the Portuguese crown representative in Brunei, recommended Lusung pilots as "discoverers" for missions beyond China to Japan and indeed these seafarers played that role in the first official visit to Japan in 1543.
Lusung was known to the Japanese as Rusun, probably stemming from the native Kapampangan term lusung rather than Tagalog lusong.
According to the historical work the Tokiko, Japanese tea lovers cherished the Rusun no tsubo (Luzon pots) and Rusun no chaire (Luzon tea canisters). Multiple sources confirm that the most valuable of these were simple earthernware containers that the Japanese often gilded and embellished with gems. Like the metates/lusung, the value of these pots as trade items was not readily apparent. One master trader known as Rusun Sukezaemon made a fortune selling Luzon wares including some that he presented to the sengoku daimyo Toyotomi Hideyoshi.
The record of the Luções in the 16th century indicate that they were very actively involved in the geopolitical events of the region, which was now the focus of the eyes of the "Old World." According to the Ming annals, the kingdom of Lusung was considered important enough for emperor Yung Lo, in the second year of his reign, to send the famed admiral Zheng Ho to attack Lusung and neighboring regions. The Chinese fleet made three attempts to subjugate Luzon prior to the arrival of the first Europeans on the scene about a century later.
Apr 06, 2019 2:08 pm
The Chinese Empire under admiral Zheng Ho apparently tried to destroy or subjugate Lu-Song that's why some Filipinos sided with the Spanish against the Chinese who were also quite numerous around the kingdom of Luzon.
Either way.
Its probably in revenge to the conquest of Zeng Ho that we allied with the Spanish. It was primarily the Hiligaynons from the Visayas especially in the Confederation of Madya-as (who had a blood feud with the Half Chinese from the Kingdom of Lusung and had warred against and pirated Chinese shipping)
The Manila Galleons were originally built in Oton, Iloilo before it began to be built around Cavite, Manila.
And it rivaled Zeng Ho's treasure fleet.
(I'm guessing the vengeful Hiligaynons of Madya-as wanted to make ships that would rival Zeng Ho's to spite the Chinese oppressors)
Zeng Ho's treasure fleet ships: 137 m long and 55 m.
The Manila Galleons: 130 m long and 51.5 meters wide with 4 decks and displacing some 2,000+ tons.
(An impressive feat for a tiny island-country to have ships that would rival Imperial China's in total size and capacity)
The gigantic galleons were a direct response to the treasure fleet. And when Luzon was finally occupied by the Spanish, the Visayans brought about their vengeance by participating in the first massacre of Chinese and Japanese at the Kingdom of Luzon (Which the Visayans hated as a bunch of pirates or imperialists and the half Japanese and half Chinese of Luzon; children of pirates or imperialists as the Lucoes were collaborators with the Japanese and Chinese anyway [to gain access to their ports and hence their wealth])
Apr 06, 2019 2:09 pm
^ Ha I just discovered that Zeng Ho's Ship sizes were greatly exaggerated
Treasure ships' dimensions are debated on practical engineering grounds, with some suggesting they were as short as 61–76 m (200–250 feet) or that they could only have been used on special occasions in the relative safety of the lower Yangtze River. Although a claimed treasure ship rudder has been unearthed in Nanjing, China, its size is no larger than rudders known to have been used in <60m long Jiangsu traders in the 1930s, so cannot be taken as evidence of the uprooted giant dimensions..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_treasure_ship
Which means, that the Manila Galleons are the largest actual sea-worthy ships ever made.
Apr 06, 2019 2:09 pm
One explanation for the alleged size of these colossal ships was that the largest 44 Zhang treasure ships were merely for a display of imperial power by the Emperor and imperial bureaucrats on the Yangtze River when on court business, including when reviewing Zheng He's actual expedition fleet. The Yangtze River, with its calmer waters, may have been navigable for such large but unseaworthy ships. Zheng He would not have had the privilege in rank to command the largest of these ships. The largest ships of Zheng He's fleet were the 6 masted 2000-liao ships. This would give burden of 500 tons and a displacement tonnage of about 800 tons
Lol? China's ships were merely 800 tons.
Whereas the Manila built El Concepción, wrecked in 1638, was 43 to 49 m (140–160 feet) long and displacing some 2,000 tons.
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