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SOS: Help with a paricular Japanese word!

 
Japan 日本
Last Post by MrC 5 years ago
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MrC
Posts: 198
 MrC
Topic starter
May 07, 2019 2:00 am
(@mrc)
Member
Joined: 5 years ago

I've been using  さりげなく since I was a kid and I always believed it meant without ceremony or nonchalant.

recently I looked up さりげ thinking it would mean with ceremony or formal but it doesn't.

Every web translation gives:

さりげに = casually

and

さりげなく = casually

This Makes no sense because なく is a negative in Japan meaning  not, none or without.

　This would be like translating:

Unhappy = sad

and

Happy = sad.

Any fellow Japanese that can figure this out?

I'm thinking this is another case of someone making a mistake and hundreds of copy-past spread this misinformation.

　　

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5 Replies
shunya ohira
Posts: 5
 shunya ohira
May 07, 2019 3:44 pm
(@shungha)
Active Member
Joined: 5 years ago

Well, your saying that なく always means negative is simply wrong.

なく here is not negative at all.

I can list many なく sentences without the meaning of negative

はかなく

ゆるぎなく

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shunya ohira
Posts: 5
 shunya ohira
May 07, 2019 3:46 pm
(@shungha)
Active Member
Joined: 5 years ago

It’s all about the sounding change.

The way you automatically think なく is negative does not make sense.

さりげなく is coming from さりげない

い is changing to く

If you think that なく here means negative, it means that you are not versed with Japanese. At least, you are not using the Japanese language in your daily life.

I hope this helps your understanding...

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1 Reply
MrC
 MrC
(@mrc)
Joined: 5 years ago

Member
Posts: 198
May 09, 2019 6:43 am
Reply toshunya ohirashunya ohira

Well, I did move to America since I was a three so I don't speak Japanese daily.

Back to your point.  But ない is also a negative so I don't understand what your saying.

知らない = I don't know

知らなく = didn't know or without knowing.

Maybe a better way to ask is; what is the etymology of さりげなく?

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pochi
Posts: 95
 pochi
May 07, 2019 3:49 pm
(@pochi)
Trusted Member
Joined: 5 years ago

Hello, MrC

nice to be here again!

here’s some reference from Web dictionaries:

‘the newly created word like ‘さりげに’is regarded as an abbreviation of the word ‘さりげなく’,both meaning the same.

https://www.weblio.jp/content/%E3%81%95%E3%82%8A%E6%B0%97%E3%81%AA%E3%81%8F

https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/89681/meaning/m0

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MrC
 MrC
(@mrc)
Joined: 5 years ago

Member
Posts: 198
May 09, 2019 7:13 am
Reply topochipochi

Hi Pochi

thank you for the links.  I understand how なく got abbreviated to に.  However, the second link gave a Kanji form:

さりげ‐な・い【▽然りげ無い】

 

Studying this, I feel I found the answer

無い =[Nai ]= None

然 = [Ran]Chinese = [Shika]Japanese = Right/Proper

 

I believe that 然りげ came from Chinese meaning 'Proper' and therefore 然りげ無く means  not proper hence Casual.

There is a Parallel in English.   The word 'nonchalant' means casually/unconcerned but there is no 'Chalant'.    Only the negative form came to be used in english and the original French word 'chaloir' (earlier chaler), meaning' to interest' or 'to be important' did not become a part of English.

In the same way 然りげ is not in common use in Japanese but 然りげ無く is in common use.

Thank you Pochi for your help.

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